Ms 82, 1901

Ms 82, 1901

Interview/With Dr. and Mrs. Sanderson

“Elmshaven,” St. Helena, California

August 25, 1901

See variant Ms 82a, 1901. Portions of this manuscript are published in CG 85-86, 253-254; CD 489-490; 1MR 71-72, 282-283; 1Bio 21.

Report of Interview of Dr. and Mrs. A. J. Sanderson with Mrs. E. G. White, 7 a.m., August 25, 1901.

Mrs. White: Now you may present what you have upon your mind. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 1

Dr. Sanderson: I want to emphasize the ideas that I had relative to the education and training of our helpers and what I thought that the work ought to be. It has been my conviction in all my work that every effort that was made would be purely a matter of education, either with the patients or the helpers, that the only consistent way to get them to change their course is to educate them so that they can see the reason for it, and do it by their own free will. In our family things will come up that will need discipline, and it seems to me that the more we educate, the less we will have to discipline; and to discipline without educating, it seems to me, is more a destructive work than an educative work. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 2

Sister White: I thought that was understood in our work all the way through. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 3

Dr. Sanderson: Yes; but there is a great deal of difference in the way different people go at it. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 4

Sister White: While we know that the helpers must receive an education, yet there is to be an enforcement of the rules of the institution, or else there will be a broken up, distracted state of things, which must not be allowed. There must be discipline connected with such an institution. Education is good, yet in such an institution discipline is decidedly necessary. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 5

Dr. Sanderson: I am sure that there should be discipline, but it has to be done with the educational work. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 6

Sister White: It should be all woven together. The discipline should come in connection with the education. The discipline and the precept go together. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 7

Dr. Sanderson: Yes, I think that is true. But I think when you undertake to discipline without educating, when you undertake to change the course of a helper without getting him to see the reason why you are doing it, you always make it worse and do not accomplish anything. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 8

Sister White: Well, they should be told why these things are done. Appeal to their reason. Do not let them remain in ignorance. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 9

Dr. Sanderson: I think that has been the greatest source of our difficulty in the Sanitarium. I have always tried to work on those lines, and I think that the difficulties in the management have come from that more than anything else. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 10

Sister White: It comes as the result of a lack on both sides. If you do not make the education of sufficient force to ensure its being carried out, it does not amount to anything. Then too, there is a lack, if they are given the “You must” and “You shall” without the education. As you will see when the educational book comes out, I have had laid open before me these things. The education that is given does not amount to anything unless it is carried out by practical obedience and service. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 11

Dr. Sanderson: No, it is no good, except they carry it out; but often it takes line upon line, and precept upon precept upon precept, in order to get them to carry out the education they receive. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 12

Sister White: We know that, because we have met these questions in our educational institutions, especially in Avondale. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 13

Dr. Sanderson: I do not think that you can look upon educational work in our institutions—in our sanitariums, and among our patients—in the same way that you can in our schools where we are dealing entirely with young people and children. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 14

Sister White: I am speaking of education along medical missionary lines of work, in our sanitariums as well as in our schools; the principle is the same, and it is the practical carrying out of the principle that gives the people confidence in the work. In the family there must be correct education and discipline. I took up this question during our recent camp-meeting at Los Angeles. Discipline begins with the educator; the teacher should always be properly trained. As teachers in their own family, parents are to see that the rules are not disobeyed, because if disobedience to parents is allowed, disobedience to God would be encouraged. The father and mother, as teachers in the home, should teach their children to obey the commandment of God, “Honor thy father and thy mother; that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.” [Exodus 20:12.] A heavy responsibility rests upon parents. They are to teach their children to obey this command. By allowing their children to go on in disobedience, they fail to exercise proper discipline. Children must be brought to the point of submission and obedience. Disobedience must not be allowed. Sin lies at the door of the parents who allow their children to disobey. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 15

Dr. Sanderson: You would not think an arbitrary obedience that was forced out of the children, without the heart being in it, would do any good, would you—when the individual did not see the right of it? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 16

Sister White: Are you speaking of a child? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 17

Dr. Sanderson: Do you think that forced obedience out of an individual, because an individual is so influenced that he has to obey and does not want to obey—do you think that does him any good? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 18

Sister White: You cannot force a grown person to any course of action, because God compels no one to obey Him. It is left for you to lay down the principles. If they refuse to accept the principles, then separate them from the institution without further controversy. This is the course of action to follow. Discipline commences with the person. Parents must educate their children for their present happiness and for their future eternal happiness. If parents first learn obedience themselves, they are prepared to bring up their children to obey strictly. No half-way work is to be done. Children are to understand that they are to obey. When fathers and mothers discipline their children in the fear of the Lord, they may have a church in their home. Then they are prepared to have their names recorded on the church-book, and to work in the church. Discipline in the church has been neglected, and neglected, and neglected, until there is existing a disorganized state of things, which is not pleasing to God. Many names now retained on the church-book should be dropped. When they repent, confess their sin, and humble the heart before God, then let them unite with the church. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 19

Dr. Sanderson: I think that is true. It is pretty hard, though, when you get a child that has never been disciplined in the home, to discipline him in the church. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 20

Sister White: O yes; as I have said, the beginning is with the father and the mother; they must discipline themselves; and then they can discipline their children. Then when these children unite with the church, they will carry with them the habits of obedience they have learned in the home. But so often they are allowed to go all haphazard, just as they want, saying, “I don’t want to.” When I was a child, when was told to do something, sometimes I would begin to speak words of complaint, and would go out of the room. But I would be called back, and asked to repeat what I had said. Then I would repeat it. My mother would take that up, and show me how I was a part of the family, a part of the firm; that it was as much my duty to carry my part of the responsibility as it was my parents’ duty to take charge of me. She would carry that right out to the letter. I had my times now and then for amusement, but I tell you there was no idleness in my home, and there was no disobedience there that was not taken in hand at once. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 21

Dr. Sanderson: If our young workers had always had that discipline, our institutions would be altogether different. But we have to deal with young people and grown-up people who have not had that discipline. That is what makes it complicated. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 22

Sister White: As those in the institution are nearly all believers, you should let them see that as they are professedly under service to God, you have the same responsibility as parents have over their children, to require them to walk in the right way, according to the Word of God; and if they do not do it, why, then, it is of no use for them to stay there, and attempt to get an education, because it would all be false. They cannot get it without coming under discipline. Without a proper training they will never be of any service to God or to any one else; therefore obedience is a reasonable requirement for the benefit of both themselves and the institution. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 23

Dr. Sanderson: O, I think that is true. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 24

Sister White: There is where the heaven is brought into the family. If we ever unite with the family in heaven, we must begin that work of having a heaven in the home. We may have heavenly order in the family in our homes here below. I am instructed to caution parents never to punish in anger, never to raise the voice, never to let any passionate word escape their lips. I never allowed my children to think that they could plague me in their childhood. I also brought up in my family others from other families; but I never allowed those children to think that they could plague their mother. Never did I allow myself to say a harsh word or to become impatient or fretful over the children. They never got the better of me once—not once, to provoke me to anger. When my spirit was stirred, or when I felt anything like being provoked, I would say, “Children, we shall let this rest now; we shall not say anything more about it now. Before you retire, we shall talk it all over.” Having all this time to reflect, by evening they had cooled off, and I could handle them very nicely. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 25

Dr. Sanderson: I think we agree entirely upon the principles that ought to be carried out in the institution, and upon the education that ought to be given; and, of course, it always takes time, however, to make reforms and to carry the people with you. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 26

Sister White: It takes a great deal of time, if they never begin. Now is the time to begin. If you wait, and wait, and wait, and allow disorder to come into the institution, and this disorder prevails, there never would be any reform before the institution closes. There are dispositions that must be handled decidedly, yet dispassionately. They must understand what the institution is—that it is something we are carrying on in behalf of God; it is a sacred place, and there are to be no side issues connected with it. The helpers are to come up to time, and to obey the rules of the institution, or else they can go somewhere else to get their education; because in an institution like this, where the influence of one will have an effect on the influence of another, a wrong, counteracting influence cannot be allowed; for this catching spirit of so-called independence would soon permeate the institution, making it an unmanageable affair. It would be a wicked thing to let it go so, because you are sanctioning wickedness when you do not take it right in hand and stop it right where it is. There is a solemn responsibility resting upon every soul working along educational lines. If we expect the Lord to co-operate with us, we cannot carry out our ideas, but must do what the Word of God tells us to do. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 27

Dr. Sanderson: You take Christ, the life of His disciples. Christ did not undertake in the early part of His ministry to change their lives all over. They carried habits and temperaments with them all the time Christ was with them, and Christ educated all the time; but He did not accomplish all that He wished to accomplish, even until He left them. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 28

Sister White: Not in Judas, He did not. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 29

Dr. Sanderson: He did not in Peter. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 30

Sister White: I know that. He did not fully in Peter. But He did in Peter until the great trial came. Peter was submissive to the Lord until his great trial came. There was nothing in John. When He reproved John for proposing to call down fire from heaven, and all these things, John repented, and so did Peter. Christ knew the awful trial was coming, and He told Peter all about how it would come; and Peter had a pretty sore time of it, I assure you, in carrying out his own way. Of course Jesus did not force him. He let Judas have the whole education—but we have no need to bring up those things. Christ rebuked them severely. You know He again and again did it. He rebuked John, and rebuked Peter. He said, “Get thee behind me, Satan.” He had been trying to prepare Peter for the great trial. Satan was influencing the mind of Peter. Christ said the rebuke Peter gave Him came from Satan. Said He, “Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me.” [Matthew 16:23.] 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 31

Dr. Sanderson: It seems to me that is the attitude always to take—to be in a perfect attitude where you can give perfect advice, and act with authority; but after Christ had educated them, after He had rebuked, He never attempted to do anything more than that with His disciples. It took them years in order to develop righteous principles and see things as they ought to be seen. I think with young people—we have young people that come here with certain temperaments, and you cannot change those temperaments, if you try to. You have to expose those temperaments, and expose those lives to Christian influences and to conditions by which they can gradually come to see their condition, and by which they will become transformed. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 32

Sister White: That is all that we have ever tried to do; but if they, after understanding plainly what the rules of the Sanitarium are, go on the same way, not caring for the rules, then it is right to separate them from the institution, because not merely the one person, but the whole institution, is affected by the phase of character of that one person. That is how it is. All of the people—the whole class of students—are affected by the atmosphere which surrounds the soul of the one who will not come to the right terms. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 33

Dr. Sanderson: I think that is true. I think if there is a person there who is bound to take an independent course, independent of the atmosphere and the rules and regulations of the institution, he ought to be separated; and I have always thought this; only what troubles me is to know how much leniency and patience we ought to maintain to some who may know well, and have not the power to do it. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 34

Sister White: Of course there is to be a dealing with them something like Christ has instructed us to deal with the church members. You go to them alone, and talk with them. If they will not hear you, then take two or three others. If they will not hear you then, set them aside. Christ has told us what to do. He has given us our lesson. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 35

Dr. Sanderson: If those rules had always been carried out, there would have been a good deal better condition of things now. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 36

Sister White: Certainly there would be; but they have not always been carried out. These rules have been neglected. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 37

Dr. Sanderson: But they ought to be carried out in the right way. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 38

Sister White: There is a right way, and there is a wrong way. I never lifted a hand to my children before I talked with them; and if they broke down, and if they saw their mistake (and they always did when I brought it before them and prayed with them), and if they were subdued (and they always were when I did this), then I had them under my control. I never found them otherwise. When I prayed with them, they would break all to pieces, and they would throw their arms around my neck and cry like children. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 39

Edson ran in one day. “Come,” said he, “come, Mother, I want you to pray with me.” “Well,” I said, “what is the matter? What’s up now?” Said he, “My little cousin struck me, and I struck him back, and,” said he, “I’m afraid it will be written in the book. I don’t want it to be written in the book.” Well, I took him into the bedroom, knelt down, and prayed with him; and then he prayed. He asked the Lord to forgive him and not to put it in the book. He seemed so afraid his mistake was going to be written in the book. He had heard me talk in meeting concerning the wrong deeds of persons being recorded in the book. He just cried and broke all to pieces, saying, “Now, Mother, you don’t think it will be put in the book, do you?” Said I, “No, I know it will not be.” Then he was very much pleased. But passion, the jerking and twitching of children, and hurting them, bruising them, I cannot tolerate anywhere nor in any way. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 40

Dr. Sanderson: That passion that bruises children is the same thing as that impatience which becomes arbitrary and offensive to a grown person when you undertake to change them; and there is just where the difficulty in our work comes in. I have never been able to co-operate with that kind of discipline. I have never objected to anybody’s using that discipline, if they took the responsibility; but standing in the responsible position that I have, I have always taken the other policy—of trying to educate and get them to reform. And that is the only successful way I have found in changing anybody’s course and altering their condition. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 41

Sister White: A Christian would do that. There is no question about that. Christians who have an abiding Christ in them will never hurt and bruise the soul by their words, by their spirit, or by their actions. They never will do it. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 42

Dr. Sanderson: I think that everybody has to be moved by an inner Christian principle in the soul. If they have it themselves, they will discipline others in accordance with that; but for a person who has not that experience for themselves, to make another have an experience they think they ought to have, is always destructive work. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 43

Sister White: Yes, it always is, because they themselves must be ruled and controlled. When those, who in childhood have been left uncontrolled and passionate, come to maturity and attempt to govern children, that passion will fly out every time their way is crossed. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 44

Dr. Sanderson: Certainly. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 45

Sister White: Therefore it is the wickedest thing, I hold, for parents not to bring up their children in the nurture—there is nurture to it—and admonition of the Lord. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 46

Dr. Sanderson: Now the great difficulty of our institutions and our work throughout the Conferences is the fact that people are set to work and set in authority that have not got that experience. They have a certain knowledge of the truth; they have a knowledge of a form of the truth, a form of diet, a form of reform, and they carry that out in form, and they try to have everybody else carry it out in form; but it does not work, and when others are told to do it, and do not see the heart and life in it, it is always destructive. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 47

Sister White: Yes. But you will meet these negative, warring spirits everywhere, and if you let them have their sway, there will be great mischief done; but if you in the name of the Lord show them that it is not the right spirit, that you cannot have it, that it must not be indulged, that things cannot be corrected and set in order in that way, and then represent in your own spirit the meekness and tenderness of Christ—this is what we should endeavor to do. There is one who rushes into the fire, and another rushes into the water; but there is a right way—the narrow path of self-denial. They will think they have to give a lecture, or something, and that will set things in order. You have to come directly to the person and ask them, “Why did you do that?” 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 48

Dr. Sanderson: Yes, I think that is true—that personal work is the only way to accomplish that. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 49

Sister White: Ask them, “Why did you do that? You know that is wrong, and why dis you do it?” If they get in a passion, as I have seen, just as soon as the lines get loose, they do not know where they are going. I never allowed, in correcting my children, even my voice to be changed in any way. When I saw something wrong, I waited until the “heat” was over, and then I would take them after they had had a chance for reflection and were ashamed. They would get ashamed, if I gave them an hour or two to think of these things. I always went away and prayed. I would not speak to them then. After they had been left to themselves for a while, they would come to me about it. “Well,” I would say, “we will wait until evening.” At that time we would have a season of prayer, and then I would tell them that they hurt their own souls and grieved the Spirit of God by their wrong course of action. Sometimes, as the apostle says, wrongdoers are to be rebuked sharply right on the ground, in order to give a right impression to others concerning such a spirit being exercised. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 50

Dr. Sanderson: It takes a good deal of discernment to understand which things ought to be rebuked sharply and which things ought to be dealt with leniently. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 51

Sister White: That is it. We must have an abiding Christ; for unless we have an abiding Christ, we shall be all out of line. It is a great thing to know how to do; but there is a way. When Satan is in the person, the one in error is to be rebuked right there, and there is to be no passing over the evil. It must be rebuked. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 52

Dr. Sanderson: O yes; I acknowledge that; and it ought to be done right at the time, too. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 53

Sister White: Yes. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 54

Dr. Sanderson: You expect to go away tomorrow morning? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 55

Sister White: Yes. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 56

Dr. Sanderson: I will not have a chance to see you again, probably, before our next board meeting. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 57

Sister White: Where is this meeting to be? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 58

Dr. Sanderson: There are a good many things that are coming up. It ought to be over here, I think. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 59

Sister White: I could come up here, I think, if it were here. Of course I could come up. I want to be at the next meeting. I don’t know as I do, either. I don’t really care to. I would rather not. I would rather not be at the next meeting. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 60

Dr. Sanderson: We would be glad to have you there. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 61

Sister White: Well, I carry too much upon my heart. It hurts my heart. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 62

Dr. Sanderson: I am greatly perplexed to know what I ought to do in the face of what you have said and written about my work. I have carried a great burden for the work ever since I have been there, and if I have failed in it in the way it seems I have, I do not think it is consistent to go on with it. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 63

Sister White: To go on with it? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 64

Dr. Sanderson: No. I have carried the responsibilities there for a good many years, and I have never had the sympathy and support of those who were with me. They have always looked on my work with suspicion, and they have thought that it was of a different stamp than ought to be there; and there has always been an effort to criticize in an underhanded way. People have not come to talk with me about the faults in my work. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 65

Sister White: I cannot endure anything underhanded. I cannot endure that kind of a thing. It is not a right thing to do. They should come right to you and tell you in a proper manner what they have to say; but to go around to others, I do not believe in it. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 66

Dr. Sanderson: I have stood it for five or six years there, and the situation now—I do not know as it is any better than it has been; and if there are others who are better prepared to carry the responsibility there, I would rather they would. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 67

Sister White: Yes. One thing, I think you are not plain enough to come out and say what should be before the very persons themselves. I think you shrink from that. I know you do; and therefore things go as they should not go. They do not seem to—well, they look at it as a weakness in your managing. When something is wrong, that wrong must be remedied before the healing can come from the wrong; and there is a lack of carrying out the principles of faithful rebuking and reproving and correcting. All these things have to be done. You remember the charge given to Timothy: “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, ... preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and doctrine.” [2 Timothy 4:1.] Well, this work must be done. It is not a pleasant work, I want to tell you—not a pleasant work at all. But still, these duties must not be neglected. It is doing a serious injury to a person to allow them to go on in a high-headed way, in a style of their own; for it is confirming in them a spirit which ought to be repressed in any of the workers or in any of the students who are trying to learn. That spirit will be met. Why? Because it was never met in their childhood. In church capacity it is very hard to do anything with those who were in their youth left to have their own way, carry out their own plans, and consult their own wishes. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 68

Dr. Sanderson: In your conversation the other day at the board meeting, in speaking of the responsibilities of medical superintendent, you expressed yourself quite strongly that in his work he was in a certain sense responsible for nearly everything in the institution. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 69

Sister White: That he was responsible? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 70

Dr. Sanderson: Yes. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 71

Sister White: Yes; he is. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 72

Dr. Sanderson: I could not understand the meaning of a statement like that, when you have written to me so many times that I must not undertake to deal with the management of the institution. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 73

Sister White: Well, as you did manage—when you stand as a manager, as you have done—it has been as a manager, although you may say others are chosen; but you have virtually been the manager; although you did not have the name of being a manager. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 74

Dr. Sanderson: In what way was I manager? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 75

Sister White: Because it was your mind that was carried out. That is how it was. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 76

Dr. Sanderson: Do you mean at the present time? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 77

Sister White: I mean it has been thus. I do not say just the present time, just now; but it has been thus. You have not taken the name of a manager, and yet you were the manager, and things went as you said. You were back of things. It may be there were some things that went contrary; but generally they went as you said. You were virtually the manager in these things. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 78

Dr. Sanderson: You think it ought to be different than what it is at present? Do you think that the arrangement at the present time is a wrong one? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 79

Sister White: What arrangement? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 80

Dr. Sanderson: Do you think the organization of the work as it is at present is wrong? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 81

Sister White: I do not know what the arrangement of the work comprehends. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 82

Dr. Sanderson: It is practically the same now as it has been all the time. Brother Kilgore is manager, and I am medical superintendent. A manager has been there all the time. It is true, when they put Bowen in, he was a young man, and he did not comprehend the needs of the institution, and I had to do a good many things, because he did not know how. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 83

Sister White: That is it. You see you were the manager. He consulted you in these things. He understood what your mind was, and he carried it out. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 84

Dr. Sanderson: O no, Brother Bowen did not carry out my mind a good part of the time. He did a great many things that I could not approve of in the least. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 85

Sister White: There may be some things that he did not do in harmony with your mind; but generally that was it; that was the general tenor of the understanding. But from the light that was given me, I felt decidedly that there should be one other physician there, and the patients should have more attention from the physician himself than they have had. They should have— 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 86

Dr. Sanderson: I have always said that, Sister White. I have always said that it was not my desire to have to devote my time to take care of the mechanical arrangements of the institution. It is not my desire, or my place, or my work; but, on the other hand, when I meet the patients and see that they do not have the arrangements that it is necessary for them to have, I must do it. I see that they do not have what they should, and I have to educate the management to get the necessary facilities. That has been the trouble ever since I have been there. I would go to any department of the institution—I would go to the culinary department, or to any other department, and would find that the people who had them in charge had no conception whatever of the necessities of those departments for the satisfaction and comfort of the guests. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 87

Sister White: That is why there should be no persons of limited experience and understanding placed as directors. No one should have taken Brother Bowen as a manager, because any such young person is not prepared for such work. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 88

Dr. Sanderson: They took him simply because they did not know who else to get at that time. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 89

Sister White: That is why they should have had at the very commencement—when Maxson came in there—they should have had a firm, strong, decided man, but he would not have such; no, sir, he would not have a manager at all; he would not come in unless he could manage himself. So it was with Burke—just the same. The great mistake was in not having a fully authorized, appointed manager. If they had had one, the institution today would stand very much higher than it does. But he would not have one. He was going to be manager himself. He was fully sufficient and equipped, he thought, to be a manager. Well, he was out of his place in being a manager. It was not his place, nor your place—you are physicians. It is your business to take the physicians’ work. They should consult together—the manager consult with the physicians, and the physicians consult with the manager—and have a thorough understanding of how things should go. The physician should consult the manager in regard to the facilities that they must have in the Sanitarium; and when the physician sees a lack, anything that is not as it should be, just communicate to the manager, and have a perfect understanding—drawing in even cords all along. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 90

Dr. Sanderson: Supposing your manager would not do that? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 91

Sister White: Well, if he is a sensible man, and understands the will of God, he will do it. There are some high-headed and strong-opinionated men who want to carry things. They will always be in every place; you will always find them; and they are difficult to handle, difficult to do with; therefore it is essential that in all these places, men should not be put in positions of trust to be regarded as fixtures. They should be put in on trial and test, and then it will soon develop whether they have the qualifications to stand in that position. If they have not the qualifications, that institution is not to go crippled and lamed all the way through, bearing the defects that should be reformed. It is not to be so. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 92

Dr. Sanderson: But that has been the difficulty all through these years. There has been a manager there all the time during Dr. Maxson’s presence, and during all the time—during my time there; and you recognize, Sister White, that the physician who comes in contact with the patients every day, to whom the patients come with all their complaints and all their difficulties—the physician can recognize and see the conditions that are most essential for the welfare of those patients a great deal better than anybody else; and if you can have a manager who is willing to consult, and is willing to take in the situation as it is, and will execute that management that will give to the patients what they should have, that is all right—that is where it should be. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 93

Sister White: Here is where we had the difficulty with Dr. Burke. He received into the institution several Catholic girls. The Crawford girls stood at the head of the nurses, you remember. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 94

Dr. Sanderson: I was not here at the time. I do not know anything about it. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 95

Sister White: Well, the Crawford girls stood at the head; and if they asked these Catholic girls to do something, they would sometimes take a notion that it was not the right thing to do, and would go right to Dr. Burke, and tell him all about it; and then he would tell them that he would see to that. Instead of telling them that they should do as they were directed to do in their service for the institution, as far as it was right and consistent, he would pacify them and say that he would see that the matter was attended to. Then these wicked girls would write notes and tuck them under the door of these girls who had stood in a position of trust for years at the head of the nurses. These notes would say, “Dr. Burke is going to attend to your case. He will see that you are ushered out of here pretty soon.” I myself saw one of these notes, so that I know this is not a false report. They would slip the notes under the door, and Dr. Burke dismissed the Crawford girls and kept the Catholics. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 96

Dr. Sanderson: For a great many years there has not been a single individual taken into the institution as a nurse or in any capacity, but what the matter has been carefully discussed by all the management together, and it has come as the united action of the management every time. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 97

Sister White: Yes. You see how miserable was the management at that time. These Catholic girls were as high-headed as they could be, with their education and their Catholic theories. And they ruled out those who did not come in accordance with their mind. Well, then, the doctor came to Healdsburg and wanted me to come here. Said I, “What do you want me to come there?” “I want you to come to remove Sister Ings.” “Why, what has Sister Ings done?” “Well, she does not treat the patients right.” I came up. I learned all about it. They had several patients, oh, the queerest set! Some were filled with hatred against everything good and righteous. Their course of action was such that no one could please them. They would complain to the doctor, and he would take up their words of complaint. He had gotten it all fixed up that Sister Ings was to be turned out. Her fault was that she was faithful and truth to principle. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 98

I came up, learned those circumstances, and then asked the doctor if he would not have an interview with me. I asked them to tell me what Sister Ings had done, and I found that she had done nothing but what she should have done. They told me that they wanted something cooked, and it was not done the minute they wanted it. There was nothing to their complaints. I investigated them thoroughly. You see, if the physician would listen to all these little complaints of the patients, failing to understand that they were not reliable, but evil conjectures, prejudices that the devil puts into their minds because they do not love God and the truth, there would be a strange condition of things. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 99

Dr. Sanderson: I think that Sister Ings has been one of my most valuable workers all through the years that I have been here. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 100

Sister White: She is not a severe person at all. She is not one of that kind. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 101

Dr. Sanderson: She is not severe enough. She would do better if she would bring her girls to time. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 102

Sister White: That is the difficulty I would find with her; and you have the same weakness too, have you not? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 103

Dr. Sanderson: Yes, I know. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 104

Sister White: It is necessary to be firm and decided in order to correct the faults of early education. In a sanitarium the work must be done properly. At times some must be brought to order. Those who refuse to reform should for their own good and the good of the Sanitarium, be dismissed. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 105

Dr. Sanderson: When I was speaking of the patients, I was not speaking to find fault with my manager. But I could not see how you can have a manager here who is successful, unless he can listen to the physician sufficiently to bring about those things which will be for the welfare of the guests. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 106

Sister White: You could not make a decree like that of the Medes and Persians, to hold persons in the Sanitarium who were not capable of doing the duties devolving around them. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 107

Dr. Sanderson: I want especially to get at the present situation, and I want to know what to do. The essential thing is to know what are the necessities of the institution. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 108

Sister White: I brought these cases up to show how some patients are always disturbed, and think they are always neglected. Poor, feebled sufferers, if their hope is not centered in Christ, will be impatient. They will brood over their supposed greviences, and think that they are neglected. Their words of complaint cannot always be accepted as truth. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 109

Dr. Sanderson: Certainly. I appreciate that. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 110

Sister White: There are some sick people who have always been drawing upon others, and sapping, as you may say, the very life out of others. They expect that everybody is going to sympathize with them. A physician should understand this matter. He should lead their minds into a hopeful train of thought. Those who are sick think that a physician helps them. He is next to God to them; they have confidence that he can help them better than anybody else, because he relieves their sufferings. This is the reason that a Christian physician can do more in spiritual things than any one else, because the patients look to him almost as their Saviour. So the patients will be helped if you will give them a sympathetic talk oftener than you do. You say too little to your patients. Let your words assure them about themselves and how they are. If you can encourage them in regard to their health; but I presume that there are some to whom you can hardly give encouragement that they will regain their health. So speak to them of the loving Redeemer. By your helpful words, plant the seeds of truth. Speak words to encourage them. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 111

Dr. Sanderson: In some cases you cannot. You must be truthful. You cannot tell lies. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 112

Sister White: I know that. I remember how one physician told a mother concerning her daughter, “There is no consumption about her. We will soon send her home to her husband,” and in just a few days she was past all hope. O, it was awful! The mother was in an agony. The doctor did not know what he was talking about. I was well acquainted with the family. To my knowledge there were several patients who were encouraged by this same physician that they would get well, and they went down rapidly. Almost to the last breath he told them that they were going to get right well. He should have faithfully presented their condition to them, pointing them to the sympathizing Redeemer. When one who is dying is led to believe in the Saviour, peace and joy comes to the soul. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 113

Dr. Sanderson: I have seen a great many such cases. I do not think that it is right. I do not think that a physician can be untrue and make a success of his work. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 114

Sister White: You do not know, you cannot tell, what a good work you can do. You can tell your patients that One higher than you has control of their cases. Say to them in tender, pitying love, We are going to do everything we can do for you. We will pray for you and work for you, and we shall be very thankful if God will raise you up. My brother, you are too reticent on spiritual matters. It is best not to be so reticent. This is where some physicians have made a mistake. It is not right for you to come in and say abruptly, “You are going to die; you cannot live”—unless it were such as the woman who died so suddenly as the result of wrong eating. Well, you knew that she could not live. To all appearances, her case was a hopeless one. But I did not expect that she would die quite so soon. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 115

Dr. Sanderson: These cases drop off suddenly, usually. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 116

Sister White: You told her that there was no hope, did you not? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 117

Dr. Sanderson: Yes. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 118

Sister White: Is there anything else that you wish to say now? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 119

Dr. Sanderson: I just want to get thoroughly your ideas in reference to the management—the action that it is necessary to take. I recognize, Sister White, that what you have said is true, that I am responsible for a great many things. The very fact that I have accepted the position that I have held, makes me responsible for the way things have gone; but, on the other hand, for a large part of the time, my hands were perfectly tied. I could not do anything as it should have been done. I am unwilling to hold a position where I am to be held responsible for the way things go, and then have no voice to say how things ought to be. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 120

Sister White: This is a matter that should be considered. There are some things which ought to be studied and carefully reformed. You have a large responsibility as a physician, and others should not stand in your way or stand as criticizers. Those who do this are out of their place. There are those who have not given you the encouragement you should have had. I know from the light the Lord has given me that they have gotten out of their place in binding your hands. I have no question about this. There are some men who do not reason from cause to effect. They do not understand the relation that the physician should sustain to the institution; and while the cares and the responsibilities of outside things should not come on the physician, yet he should stand in a place where he is to be consulted in regard to what improvements are to be made, and what is to be done. He should so conduct himself that he will have the confidence of all who are bearing responsibilities. I do not think there has been a competent manager in the Sanitarium since I have been here. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 121

Dr. Sanderson: You have spoken several times about my relation with Brother Burden while he was here. Is it your conviction that he was a proper man as manager here? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 122

Sister White: Not in all respects. His greatest difficulty was in being too narrow. He was too narrow in spiritual things as well as in temporal. He did not link up sufficiently with the workers to understand what was for the good of the institution in inside conveniences. This is something that must not be stinted. Every facility for the health and treatment of the patients should be provided, even though many things outside are lacking in perfection. Brother Burden was too narrow. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 123

Dr. Sanderson: You can appreciate how such a condition as that would tie the hands of a physician who was trying to do anything. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 124

Sister White: Yes, I understand that that is so; but the qualifications of the man religiously, and his integrity, were a great help. This was not appreciated by you and by others. If he had only known more and understood better in regard to the facilities essential in an institution, he would have been more forward to do. It does not matter half so much what is outside as what is inside, in an institution. Proper inside facilities must be provided, so that the best work will be done. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 125

Dr. Sanderson: That is the trouble we were in all the time. That is the trouble that Dr. Maxson was in. As physicians we stood there, knowing that certain internal conditions were necessary for the welfare of the institution, but our hands were tied. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 126

Sister White: I do not justify that in any way. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 127

Dr. Sanderson: Yes. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 128

Sister White: Before Brother Burden went to Australia, I talked with him, and I have written since, telling him that those connected with the Sanitarium there must understand that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I had to give decided caution, because of the peculiarity of things. I told him to elevate true principles. I wrote to the brethren there and told them to receive Brother Burden; and Dr. Kress and the ministers are all very thankful that Brother Burden and his wife and sisters were sent Australia. And even the doctor and the manager have said that Brother Burden’s coming has been the greatest blessing. That is how they have written. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 129

Dr. Sanderson: He has had long experience. He ought to have developed some. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 130

Sister White: His danger was not in taking a broad enough view of the work. I told him not to take too narrow a view. “But,” said I, “I feel more like telling you not to allow those who want a large institution to carry out their ideas.” Well, they have cut the plan down, and cut it down, and cut it down, and even now they cannot finish the building. I have given, and pled, and raised money, until I am weary; and the building still stands unfinished. There are few there who can be called upon to help. Those who can give have given. Australia is different from this country. Here there are those who have been long in the truth. Many of those in the truth in Australia have just been born into the message. They have had to build meeting-houses. As many as fourteen meeting-houses have been built since we went there. It costs something to get the land and put up a church. Both lumber and labor are much higher than they are here. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 131

God will adjust all these things. They will come out all right. But I knew they needed just such a man as Brother Burden, and although we needed his talent and ability here, I am glad that he went. I am not sorry at all. It is better that he be connected with others in a new field. I told Brother Burden that he must connect with Dr. Kress and Elder Farnsworth, and counsel with them in regard to every movement made. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 132

Dr. Sanderson: What you have written so repeatedly about the management of the institution here being in the hands of somebody outside of physicians has led them to take extreme views. I do not think that you intended it so. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 133

Sister White: No. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 134

Dr. Sanderson: But it has made it awful hard for the physicians. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 135

Sister White: Well, it is this way. The way Dr. Burke carried things, and the way Dr. Maxson carried things, God could not endorse, because it was not the right way. If I had used my influence as they wanted me to—to turn out the old hands, that new workers might come in, what would have become of the Sanitarium? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 136

Dr. Sanderson: I never have asked for a change of managers. I never asked for Brother Burden to be removed. I have simply let the matter grow and develop and ripen itself. I have not asked the Board to do any of these things. And now it puts me in a very embarrassing, hard position to understand how I can go on with my work, with the way you have written about my management. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 137

Sister White: About what? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 138

Dr. Sanderson: About my management. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 139

Sister White: Well, you are a physician. You are not a manager, and you should not undertake that work, because you have another work that demands all the time and attention that you can give. Then you will not have the responsibility of managing and looking after these other things that have to be attended to. The experience that you have had in the weak management does not at all alter the fact that there should be a competent manager, but makes the necessity more positive. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 140

Dr. Sanderson: That is true, Sister White; there is no one who wants a manager any more than I do. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 141

Sister White: I was surprised to see so young men serving here as managers. Always, when I have had anything to say about it, I have advised that an experienced man be manager. They have needed such men here. They have had young men who had but little experience. They might have done well in a food factory, or something like that. But sanitarium work needs men of more experience. Dr. Maxson would not consent to work unless he could control. The brethren made a great mistake in not putting in a strong manager when Dr. Maxson was in the institutiuon. They should have chosen as a manager the best man they could find. That is where they made a mistake, in giving the institution right up to Dr. Maxson, letting him run it as he did, in a way that God could not endorse. It was managed something like a great hotel. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 142

Dr. Sanderson: Burden was manager all the time when Dr. Maxson was here. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 143

Sister White: All the time? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 144

Dr. Sanderson: Yes. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 145

Sister White: As the matter was presented to me, I understood that there was no manager that could manage Dr. Maxson. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 146

Dr. Sanderson: Burden was manager all the time Dr. Maxson was here. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 147

Sister White: Your brother, Dr. Maxson, or yourself, were not qualified to be managers. But both of you managed largely. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 148

Dr. Sanderson: During Dr. Maxson’s time here, I had no official relationship to the institution. I was not an officer or a member of the Board, or anything. I was simply assistant physician to Dr. Maxson. That testimony that you wrote to Dr. Maxson at the time he left was greatly perplexing to him, because you stated in that testimony a certain official position that I held, which he gave me when he was here, when I did not have any such position at all. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 149

Sister White: There is some misunderstanding about that, I am certain, because there was a movement made here in the building, and in things outside, that you were officious in as well as he. There were things in the movements of things, that whether you had the name of being a manager or not, there were things managed by you, and— 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 150

Dr. Sanderson: Do you know of anything that was—do you know what it was? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 151

Sister White: I cannot tell now. I do not know that I ever had anything specified to me about the matter. But if there had been a proper manager here, things never would have gone as they have. Maxson never would have ruled things as he did rule them; things would not have come in as he allowed them to come. O, the displeasure of God was upon this eating and drinking, and all this indulgence of appetite. The institution was managed for a while more as a great hotel than as a sanitarium. God did not endorse any such management as that. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 152

Dr. Sanderson: Do you approve of the manager that we have there at present? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 153

Sister White: Who is the present manager? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 154

Dr. Sanderson: Brother Kilgore. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 155

Sister White: He has just begun his work. We cannot tell yet how he will do. I do not know that I have had any special light about his capabilities for this work. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 156

Dr. Sanderson: Did you have anybody in mind that you thought ought to be manager? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 157

Sister White: I did think of Brother Nichols. Many have spoken of him. They said he had splendid faculties as a manager. I said if he had, we ought to have him here. But it seems that they want him in about four places, and he cannot be in all. They want him at the school being established at Berrien Springs, to see about putting up the buildings; they want him at Los Angeles; and they want him here. I thought he was coming to St. Helena, but his partner would not let him come. He is the only one I have thought of. Still, I have no definite knowledge from the Lord about it. Neither have I in regard to Brother Kilgore. Let him have a trial. Does Brother Fulton seem to be a good fit in the work he is doing? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 158

Dr. Sanderson: He is doing good work in that department. I was in favor of his coming, because the culinary department of the institution has been in a very bad condition all the time. It is not my business, anyway, to give my attention to it, and the manager has not been able to build it up, and we have not had anyone to see to this work. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 159

Sister White: The food, do you mean? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 160

Dr. Sanderson: O, the service, and the menus, and the food, and all. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 161

Sister White: Is the cook a good, competent person? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 162

Dr. Sanderson: O, he is not the best, but he is the best we can get. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 163

Sister White: Is he the man who went around to the camp-meetings to cook, when we were here ten years ago? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 164

Dr. Sanderson: I do not think so; I do not think he has been in the truth that long. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 165

Sister White: He is not the one I had in mind, then. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 166

Dr. Sanderson: This man is a very experienced cook, but he got his experience outside of our institutions, and he has not given the best satisfaction in certain lines. That is, he is not an expert in cooking vegetables and getting things up in nice shape, which is very essential in an institution of this kind. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 167

Sister White: It is very essential to have a well-trained, thorough cook. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 168

Dr. Sanderson: Yes, it is. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 169

Sister White: And the foods that are to be brought together can be put together in a way to be palatable, and they can be combined in a way that makes them unpalatable. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 170

Dr. Sanderson: He makes things more palatable than any cook we have had for a long time, as far as that is concerned. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 171

Sister White: I think that is saying considerable. If we can have a good, intelligent cook, then we can educate away from the meat diet. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 172

Dr. Sanderson: I think that is the only way we can educate away from it. The cooking and the menus and the service have improved a great deal since Brother Fulton came. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 173

Sister White: For a time in Avondale school we had a man as cook, and the food was made very palatable. Everything was served tastefully. No meat at all was used. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 174

Dr. Sanderson: I do not think it would be a difficult matter to do away with meat, providing we got everything just perfect without it. But the trouble with our cooks in our institutions—and it is more so with our people throughout the denomination—is, they have left off the style of cooking that they used to have, and left off meat, and they are cooking things so tastelessly and so insipid that there are lots of our people who are just starving to death. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 175

Sister White: I acknowledge that. I have written thus to Dr. Kress. I told him that as a physician he should understand when his blood was getting impoverished. “Now,” said I, “if God spares your life through this attack, never place yourself in that position again. Never say that persons must not use milk or butter or eggs or anything of that kind.” I said, “Keep these things to yourself. Do not make such statements publicly in Australia. People have to be educated by degrees; and these things are the least harmful of this class of food, if you are particular to get pure milk and fresh eggs. As to butter, I do not use it on my table, though occasionally some of the members of my family eat a little. Sometimes we use it in cooking, when we have not milk or cream.” I said to Dr. Kress, “You must not tell the people that they must not use milk and that they must not use such and such things. The time will come when they cannot have these things, but do not make a time of trouble beforehand. Do not tell those who do not understand the principles of health reform that they must dispense with milk and cream and all such things, because they must have something to eat, and it is next to impossible to prepare food palatably without milk when fruit and nut foods cannot be obtained. Let flesh meat be discarded, but do not cut off the less objectionable articles of diet, such as eggs and milk.” 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 176

I know about this extreme you speak of. They have not, it is true, the faculty to put things together in such a way as to make them palatable, and then they say, “I am starving to death on a vegetarian diet.” They would not need to starve to death if they only knew how to prepare food properly. They must learn how. Someone should educate them. I have a cook who knows how to put food together. She does not have to prepare these dishes now, for there is so much fresh fruit, but when winter comes, we shall want these dishes. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 177

Mrs. Sanderson: Maybe she might help our cooks at the Sanitarium. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 178

Sister White: If I could spare her, I would like to have her go in and show how she does these things. I would like to have her do it. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 179

Mrs. Sanderson: That is what is very much needed there. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 180

Sister White: When I was at Cooranbong many that were great meat-eaters came into my family, and when they would sit at my table, where not a particle of meat was served, they would say, “Well, if you have food like this, I could do without meat.” I think that our food satisfies our family. I tell our family, “Whatever you do, do not get a poverty-stricken diet. Place enough on the table to nourish the system. You must do this. You must invent and invent and study all the time, and get up the very best dishes you can, so as not to have a poverty-stricken diet.” 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 181

Dr. Sanderson: Do you think that Dr. Rand ought to take the position of superintendent of the work out here when he comes? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 182

Sister White: Well, the doctor thought that he would be qualified to do that—that he would be of the best service in doing that. But he need not serve here all the time. He would visit different places, becoming acquainted with the work. Then he would come back to the institution; and his associate physician could have a change, as circumstances might direct. It has been proposed that there should be an equality, that one should go out and then the other should go out, to get acquainted with other parts of the work, and to educate, as well as to work here at the Sanitarium. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 183

Dr. Sanderson: The doctor thought he would want to superintend the institution, if he came out, did he not? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 184

Sister White: I did not hear anything about it. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 185

Dr. Sanderson: You said that Dr. Rand thought he would work in the best capacity, if he were superintending the work here, did you not? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 186

Sister White: I did not converse with Dr. Rand; I have had some conversation with Dr. Kellogg about Dr. Rand’s ability and loyalty, and the position he should occupy, but not with Dr. Rand. I do not recollect distinctly what was said. I talked the matter over with Dr. Kellogg, and he thought that Dr. Rand was fitted to stand in a leading position. That was the recommendation that was given by him. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 187

Dr. Sanderson: Well, I certainly do not want the position if I am not the person for it. It is not anything that a person needs to crave. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 188

Sister White: Your position as a physician is appreciated, and yet if we had the two physicians, so that one could go out occasionally, I think it could bring in more. Do you not think it would? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 189

Dr. Sanderson: O yes, I think there ought to be more experienced physicians here certainly. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 190

Sister White: To go out, and then let the other take his turn, and go out, and that will keep it so that there will not be a constant wear on the very same nerves, and the very same kind of work. We must broaden. We must get out. We cannot stay huddled up here in a little compass. We should become more acquainted with the outside element, and educate, and present health principles to the people, so that they may know what to expect when they get here. I felt very desirous that those who came in here should see reform right through, and I think it will come around. I think that when there is the least patronage, that is the best time to make a change in the matter of serving meat to patients on the dining room tables. And yet I cannot say there never should be any meat served. I cannot say that. But meat should never be served in the dining room. In Australia, Dr. Caro and Dr. Silas Rand were called in to advise with me as to whether they should allow meat to be served on the dining room tables of the medical institutions. I said, “Not a particle of meat is to be served on the tables.” I desired to have them understand this. Well, they have had the most wonderful success in the recovery of the sick that I have seen in any institution in my life. But not a particle of meat served in the dining room. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 191

Dr. Sanderson: What do you think ought to be done up here? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 192

Sister White: I think meat should be ruled out of the dining room. But I do not advise any rash, inconsiderate movements. I am not prepared to say just how the reform should be brought about. But I know that flesh meat should be kept off the table. How is it? Do the helpers have meat on their tables? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 193

Dr. Sanderson: No. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 194

Sister White: Well, I think it should be taken off the patients’ tables just as soon as it is possible to do it, and there should not be long waiting either. There will be times when there will not be so many here, will there not? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 195

Dr. Sanderson: Last winter it was just about as full all through the winter as it was in the fall. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 196

Sister White: It was? I hope it will be so again. But there must be an educating, and there must be more force in the education given on the subject of healthful diet. I do not think that meat is allowed on the tables in the Battle Creek Sanitarium. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 197

Dr. Sanderson: O no, they have it. They had it there when I was there last spring. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 198

Sister White: Is that so? But it is not used so much as formerly. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 199

Dr. Sanderson: We do not have it here as much as in the past. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 200

Sister White: I suppose the patients call for it. Or is it put on the tables? 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 201

Dr. Sanderson: They put it on only when it is asked for—at the special request of the patients themselves. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 202

Sister White: The Lord will be best pleased when all our sanitariums discard flesh meat. We have reason now as never before to let meat alone, because animals are diseased. The subject can be presented from this standpoint, and it will have great effect. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 203

Dr. Sanderson: Well, I probably will not see you again before the Board meeting, and if you have anything for the Board, anything that you wish to express to the Board as to what you want them to do, I hope you will speak to them about it. I shall show to the Board that communication that you wrote to me. You sent that to the managers. If you have anything further that you would like to write them, I would be glad if you could do it. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 204

Sister White: Yes, I have some things, if it is possible for me to get them off. I do not know as it will be before I leave. It may be that we can have a talk before the meeting. I would rather have a talk with you before we enter the Board meeting, if I have anything to present. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 205

Dr. Sanderson: I have no feeling about your saying anything you care to, to the Board, independent of your talking with me. As I told you, if I am not the person for the place, I certainly do not care to carry the responsibility. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 206

Sister White: Yes. And when it comes to the things in the Sanitarium that are necessary, you should not be at all delicate in stating the need for these things, that you may see that the necessities are supplied. This is the physician’s right and privilege. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 207

Dr. Sanderson: That is what I have been trying to do for ten years, but it has always been denied me til lately. For the last six months I have had things as I wanted them, largely. The institution has prospered during that time. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 208

Sister White: As soon as I went through the bathrooms, I said, “You have not done your duty here. You will have to have different facilities.” 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 209

Dr. Sanderson: I have worked for two or three years to make those changes, and I was fought at every step by the managers. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 210

Sister White: It is a pity that things work in that way, because we give the treatment inside, and the conveniences should be on the inside. The outside can go very well, if there are some inconveniences; but when the patients come to get treatment, and have to pay their price, they should have the very best conveniences that are possible; and I know that there has been great dissatisfaction. I have heard people talk while travelling between here and Oakland. They did not know that I had any connection with the Sanitarium, or they would not have said what they did in my hearings; but they did say these things. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 211

If I do not go to Healdsburg tomorrow, there are some things I may want to say before I go. 16LtMs, Ms 82, 1901, par. 212